NWNP Episode 34: Island Adventures
Hey all you modders and developers I think you’ll really enjoy this episode of the Neverwinter Nights podcast! Trey aka Ashercon is host this episode and Michelle has an excellent interview with Lord Alex and Lady Oonagh about modding and their NWN1 series called Island Adventure . Jay is out this time with the flu. Get to feeling better Jay! I’m sure the listener’s don’t want to hear me by myself!
In the news:
- DND4e Letter to WOTC from Bruce Nielson
- PAX 2007 Preview of Mask of the Betrayer
- D20 Modern for NWN2
- New NWN Podcast Guild on Bioware site
- New Listening World: Blackdagger Avlis 1 & 2 http://www.avlis.org/
Don’t forget our Donate button if you feel led. We hope to have a way for you leave us questions via voicemail soon, and we have some new forums coming.
Until next time,
Get in game and level up!
Episode 34 downloaded times.
Great job Trey! Sorry I was not around to record. I’m bad
hehe
Milk n Cookies!
Michele
Bad Liso! Going out for partying and forgetting about poor trey he didn’t even make any bloopers so sad and alone he was *pets him*
Still that was an awesomeinterview. Lord Alex and Lady Oonagh please please find the time to make the third part of the series it was so amazing to play cant wait for more.
Still it saddened me that people get so let down by the companies. I thank all of you guys from Darkness over Daggerfall for making the module its was awesome play. I cross fingers someone else picks up where you were let down.
Michele *runs off with a fat free cookie*
Good job Trey.. Great interview, Michele.. speaking of which.. Designers -Please Please Please design stuff on NWN1.. it will live.. It will pick up steam again.. please?
Trey.. what… no funny voices?? no pronuciation attempts?! .. *sigh* I’ll wait ’til next time.
Great! The beginning was a bit of a set back, until I realized you meant, sit back.
Some very interesting stuff in this week’s cast, though I’m not quite finished with it yet. Bruce’s comments on the need for a better business model for software-enable DMing and modding are right on the money (pun intended). We communicated a little about that offline as well as in the storytelling forum. The fact of the matter is that if you want to provide the infrastructure to support an activity, and to support its growth, then you have to come up with a way that they can make money at it.
Right now, custom modding (DM, SP, PW, or whatever) is something that isn’t taken especially seriously by gaming companies, because it isn’t a strategic part of their revenue stream. They pay lip service to it because they know that players like to hear that it’s supported. But as we saw with NWN2, it’s the first thing that gets cut when the purse-strings start to get tight — because it isn’t a strategic part of their bottom line.
Similarly, modding is something that only a handful of crazed people like me can bring themselves to spend a lot of time on to begin with. Most of us don’t stick with it over the long term, in large part because it never gets to be more than an unpaid hobby to us. We tend to burn out on or get tired of it after a while, especially when faced with the competing demands of having a life and a career.
Perhaps this is just my view, but I think there could be a significant demand for software-based storytelling as a new artistic medium. But enabling that would require developing tools and a business model that would encourage and enable people to treat it as a serious and respectable (read: potentially profitable) endeavor. Something like a licensing model that would allow modders to charge for their work, in return for sending some of that revenue back to the toolset provider, would go a long way toward encouraging custom modding and making it financially viable.
Maybe they could allow builders to charge $1.00 for a mod.. and give a percentage to the game company.. nope.. that would have copy protection.. and who’d wanna pay.. maybe they could still do the premium mods for pay.. and also release disks of like 10 mods from the community for a couple of bucks with kick-backs to the modders.. they could review the submissions.. make most free.. but reward the good mods with inclusion on the pay disk.. .. hmm.. nope, too labor intensive.. or maybe they could do what the Wizkidz do and give special models or scripts or just credit to those that make the hall of fame.. or maybe give a kick-back for those who get others to buy a game by putting in their code during registration.. who knows.. there is a way to make money off of this stuff without screwing the customers..
People don’t want to have to pay again for their game.. but they’ll gladly pay to get longer life from the game as in premiums.. Hell.. make mods like itunes .. start em off at a dime.. if they’re good make ‘em fifty cents.. give credit for hosting DM games.. who knows..
In the meantime.. please keep making NWN1 mods!
I personally have played many free player made modules that were far worth more than the premium ones. Some even more than any expansion or OC.(trust me. I’ve played a lot!!) If they found a sound and legal way to charge for some of the mods that come out and warrant pay status. And the modders and or team themselves got some kick back? I’d pay to play them. Just as I have every premium released thus far. A few $ to keep my main disk a continuous enjoyment? I’m all for it.
So who’s door do we knock on to get this figured out?
You know this would generate some serious talent back out of the wood work and make this community even stronger than ever.
just my 2 cents.
Milk n Cookies!
Eat2Surf: I’d gladly have paid for many of the custom mods I’ve played. Sure, everybody wants to have everything that they want for free. But how fair is that to the people who have to provide it? Love of gaming, building and storytelling can only motivate an amateur modder so far. At a certain point, you inevitably start asking yourself why the heck you’re spending your life building free stuff for people instead of actually focusing your attention on pursuing a life and a career. As much as I appreciate my fans and the people who have enjoyed my work, I couldn’t keep doing that forever. Neither could most builders.
If you want to encourage good, professional quality interactive storytelling — which as Liso points out, many in the custom modding community have shown that they can do as well or better than the game companies — then I think you have to be willing to at least make it possible for them to be compensated for their efforts.
Liso: Thanks for your comments, and I agree completely. I’m not sure “whose door to knock on” to figure this out, because I’m not sure the game companies that currently support custom modding would be open to the idea of changing their business model to support it. Even if they were though, the number of licensing restrictions and agreements that they have with other companies over the content (for example, Wizards of the Coast) could make it prohibitive.
Personally (and right now this is really just a fantasy gleam in my mind
, I think that the way to accomplish this is for a group of developers to get together, and to produce a new engine and toolset for interactive (CRPG-based) storytelling. It would preferably be one that doesn’t use, and isn’t beholden to, license agreements for intellectual property like the D&D franchise. Or if it were, then the IP license holder would have to be fully on board with supporting the interactive gaming effort’s business model.
I think that interactive gaming as an art form is, potentially, far bigger than just D&D and fantasy gaming. In principle, it should be able to encompass any genre of fiction, from Fantasy to SciFi to modern spy fiction and thrillers to romance novels to you name it. A general purpose toolset and engine, combined with a business model that would let amateurs (or even professionals, for that matter) charge for their work in exchange for sending some of their revenue to the engine/toolset developer, could lead to the development for a serious market in interactive fiction.
Developing such a base system would require a significant investment of time, effort and capital, though. And at least based on what I’ve seen, it would be way too speculative for any of the game companies, which already tend to be extremely risk-averse. Perhaps it would have to be a venture-capital funded effort outside the gaming industry as a whole. I’m not sure.
Andarian – You comments are very thought provoking. I do think this would make an awesome discussion on a podcast show
gotta start somewhere with any new project. plus if it seems like a a good profitable project. someone will invest in theory anyway.
As far as any legal stand point. there are loop holes for everything though. And a new license control could be developed for just this type of project. Great thing about law and rules. Always a way to revise.
Maybe we can get a group of modders that have been pulled in and drop doing premium modules in a discussion about this. Including you. As you have placed a lot of thought into this. Just an idea? Seems like it could be a great brain storm of ideas.
Michele
Oh my my I bet Jay and tray sit there with their mouthes agape and their jaws dropped. Snickers* Cant wait for their reaction to the next podcast.
Andarian.. I think you misconstrued my words.. I am all for everything you said.. I was thinking aloud in my post. I was thinking also of what the “suits” would say..
I would certainly pay too.. the problem is which ones are worth buying.. I’ve played LOTS of mods.. and have about 10 mostly finished ones myself.. just never bothered to put em up. I suppose I should put some stuff up as prefab… I got into scripting.. then .. got into modelling.. then back to module making.. but I digress..
The gems of the NWN mods are excellent.. awesome.. etc.. the dogs.. well.. they’re dogs.. some I would be mad that I paid for. If I had to pay for each mod I downloaded.. well.. I’d have missed out on some gems and some dogs.. I’d probably have only played a few..
I’ve bought many PnP modules.. but never from the store for more than $5.. I DM with my own content.. but if any PnP mods come through the thriftstore I get em.. Of course, I’m pretty cheap.
What I’m getting at is that for the gamers to pay, they wanna know they’re getting something.. I’ll build stuff reguardless.. and probably still will keep it mostly on my own machine… just like my fiction.. I have a completion problem.. or maybe I just won’t let my creations go.. Now.. if I was getting paid.. that’d be another story.
Promotion of mods is no indicator of quality.. reviewers can help one weed out the dogs.. that’s what I meant my the game company sorting through all the stuff (or a paid “mod-erator”) and toss some into the pay to play bin and some into the free.. and have the pay-to-play cycle over to the free after a while.. or decrease in fees.. ($1 – .75 – .50.. free)
Hell.. maybe do the decrease thing from $5 and that might sort the dogs right there without a paid moderator.. and thus not costing the gaming company.. reviewers would get followings at their websites .. like movie critics.. and some you’d trust .. and some would be sell-outs.. but at least you wouldn’t be going in blind.
Maybe put the mods in a cafepress type deal.. free to put up.. kick-back on sales… but the same problem of copy-protection would show up.. and to much copy-protection will alienate gamers (see BioShock’s latest nightmare)..
Anyway.. yes.. I think modders should be paid for their work.. I think DMs can be paid too.. or donated to. whatever.. Just like the DM should have his pizza for free..
I’ve wandered around my point enough to be lost… I’d pay too.. I think modders should be paid for good work and the end user should get a good product.
Dave
happy face to show I’m trying to help solve this.. not crap on anyone’s ideas.
Eat2Surf: Thanks for the clarification, I think I understand you better now.
As you suggest, things like reviews, word of mouth, modder reputation, reading module descriptions, and so on would address the question of how players could find suitable work. That’s how decision-making works with everything else in the world, from watching movies to reading books to finding a doctor to you name it.
Dave’s Happy face. Foxy’s morbid wait to see Trey and Jay’s jaw’s drop. This is a fun day! lol
Yes.. of course! I have systems upon systems for Sci-Fi – fantasy – Spy – cavemen – etc.. GURPS, Theatrix (very obscure system), d20, etc.. all work..
Both very good points! And without a way for them to recoup their money.. they won’t do it.. and venture capital.. well.. they like risk.. but they like big returns for the risk.. and big returns seems like it means charging a bunch.. I know.. it wouldn’t have to be that way.. but they’d wanna see how they’d be getting their money back.
I think if those two groups are gonna figure out that there is money here, they’ll have to see it already happening on a smaller scale.. which, to me, means using existing software.. which, to me, means NWN1.
If Bioware/WOTC/Obsidian/Atari/whomever could be convinced to change the liscense to allow a form of payment for content.. I don’t know how we’d deal with content already around.. but if it showed the people with big pockets of money that they could make long-term money.. then we’d be off of square one and onto square two.
Andarian ..
just so ya know.. you’re preachin’ to the choir here.. As a writer, I have a problem that my publisher gets to make money on my books.. while I can take my family to dinner every now and then from the proceeds. .. I get 10 – 12.5% per book.. that’s fine.. but they get to discount the price as they see fit.. and if they discount it enough, then they change the percentages.. and get this.. say I get $1 on a certain book sale.. well.. when books come back to the publisher unsold I get charged $1.10 for the return.. They say it is on the level.. but I’ve never had a return cost less than my maximum percentage.. what’re ya gonna do.. they hold the cards…
I’m sure gaming publishers are just as ruthless.
The best part of the NWN1 community is that almost everyone is grateful and understands what “labor of love” means.
Enjoy!
Dave
WOW!!!! Interactive Gaming Engine and Toolset!!
The IGET!!!
This sounds like a round table episode so happening.
I agree with Trey!
*ogles at Ashercon. Wow Like in WOW I play Neverwinternight and its such an amazing game or Wow like in Oh those poor critters must play this game called BEEEEEEP?
WOW like in this is an amazing discussion!!
When are you sending the invitations to the next round table out?
Khaveen Andarion Eat2surf this time?
I really have enjoyed the discussion and agree with everyone. We did discuss this a small amount in the Story Telling in NWN Mediums discussion but it does merit its own focus.
My idea would be a NWN MarketPlace created by Bioware/WOTC/Atari. Developers could post and sell thier content via the MarketPlace. Each developer or developer team could set the price and have a percentage of it go to the MarketPlace for handeling credit card authorization etc.
This would provide an outlet not only for mod developers but for projects such as NWNX, TileSet developers etc.
The licensing would have to be modified to allow content created with NWN and NWN 2 Toolsets to be sold via the MarketPlace with redistributable rights.
I have seen this kind of approach utilized by open source and commercial software projects to build third-party support and development. The whole idea is if you can build this third-party utilities, add-ons, and support for your product it has a longer life. And the main deciding factor by consulting and development companies on whether they are going to enter into this third-party endeavor is if they can make money or not.
I firmly believe that this model or one similiar would go a long way to funding a community development revolution, as well as, provide a framework that would create small development companies that just build conent to be sold in the MarketPlace.
There, that is my 2 1/2 cents work ;-D
But to start another discussion
I found the info about how the Wizards want to bring out the DD4e internet client very disapointing. I agree fully with Bruce that that is not the right way tomake money of it. If I got it right the merchandise the thing off together with the books right? I forsee noone ever using it because why playing online if you have to pay even more, you just have purchased the corebook and considering the policy thats behind D&D now for I dunno how long you need to purchase like at least 5 more to get a game running properly.
If orignal D&D.. then AD&D was anything like the D&D4′s internet client.. it would have gone the way of all the other games.. flash in the pan.. no legs.
Then again.. people are willing to pay to get their own money out of the bank… the bank makes money coming and going.. how much loyalty do you have to your bank.
How often do you pay to use a “rival” ATM? Do you care or just chalk it up to the cost of living in today’s world?
Does your PC (as in Player Character) pay the entrance fee at the town’s gate?? or does he try to talk his way in for free?.. Does he feel robbed at the gate or does he feel all fuzzy inside?
I just storm the gate!!!!!!!! Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
To be perfectly honest In game it depends on the character I play. My lawful evil sorceress would of course charm her way throguh the gate while my bardess will sing a song trying to distract the guards enough to pass through and if that not works paying then my good hearted paladiness will of course pay and even donate some to the guards for doing a good job.
*pulls foxy’s tail again and runs laughing
*sits back laughing eating fat free cookies and watching Trey running *
*steals Liso’s eyes and glowers apropriate*
Whats is it with my tail? Trey evolving some sort of fetish there?
Wow, great discussion on the economic model issue. I want to add my two cents to the discussion.
Like Andarian, I’m a huge proponent of the idea that there really could be a viable economic model for an interactive entertainment modding community.
I am not worried about how the good mods would rise to the surface. This would happen naturally if modders could make money. The simple truth is that you’d only be able to sell *any* units if you already had an established reputation. That means that modders will have to spend years making excellent free mods before they could possibly sell any and make money. Thus the overall community would end up with many more mods of high quality *for free* from having an economic model. There would be no loss, only a gain.
Secondly, it would be up to the modders to sell their units. Thus they would have to advertise, make a name for themselves, score interviews in magazines, etc. The work to make this happen would be in the hands of the modders and their companies.
I think it’s obvious that there is potential here. I cite as evidence the premium mods from Bioware. Though I doubt it was a big money maker for them (maybe even a money loser?) there was definitely people would made purchases for such mods. While it might not be worth it to Atari, it might well be worth it to some hobbist out there.
I would imagine a market like this would probably only support 1 or 2 full time modders (especially at first.) Imagine if Adam Miller was able to sell his NWN 1 mods. He got 100,000+ downloads when it’s free. Assume only 1 in 10 after you have to pay $5. $50,000 a year is still enough to live off of. (And Adam did that while still working full time!) Not bad, not bad at all.
The fact is that most modders would still do it for a hobby or would try to make a buck or two. Several would get excited at the possibilities and lose money by advertising for a mod that never sells. That’s all just part of business.
But in the end, it would add a great deal of respectability to the hobby to even have one person that makes enough to do it full time for a year or two.
Let me share a story. I was working on my mod and my father-in-law walked in. He saw what I was doing and I saw a light come on. “Hey, can you make money doing this?”
“Nope, it’s against the End User License”
The light visibily went off. The interest was entirely gone.
Lesson learned: Money is respectability. I can only imagine how interested he would have been if I had been able to say “Yeah, Adam Miller pulled down $50,000 last year while working part time on his mod series!” My father-in-law would have spent the next several hours talking to me about it, very interested in how he could help me out.
It’s interesting to note that my father-in-law sells a self published book. Do you think he’s made money on it? Nope, lost tons. But it’s a respectable thing for him to do. He tells people he’s an author and shows them this professional looking book he’s self-published. It never occurs to him that between our two hobbies, mine actually made more money then his did.
Oh, and who’s door do we knock on?
Doesn’t exist, I’m afraid. There is no one’s door to knock on. This won’t happen until someone decides to take the risk of creating the tool set with some incredible business model that works.
Garage Games is a good and bad example of this. They created a 3-D engine that they let indie developers buy for cheap. They then supported them and offered to publish for them.
They are still around, so the business model has “worked.” However, sales are small and I don’t really expect them to last long. The whole publishing side didn’t work out as well as hoped. This strikes me as somewhat problematic. You sell a full game engine for $100 — a one time fee — and then you try to make money be taking responsibility for filtering through all the crap that indies make trying to find the gems. Bad business model, I think.
But what is the correct business model? *Scratches head* Not sure.
I think maybe something like what D&D 4E might be right, only minus the stupidity of charging DMs and charging a monthly fee for the toolset.
I could forsee a “network” where people create DMed adventures for others and people pay good money (even a monthly fee) to get into games. DMs could be rated, etc. But this would only handle DM-play, not single player mods.
I could foresee a “Second Life” style model where you create a giant connected world and sell land… but that would be creatively difficult for storytelling. (Your players just hop on over to Monty’s Magic Giveaway first to make your carefully balanced mod easier.)
I could foresee a licensing model where you can make your mods and sell them without worry until you hit a certain point, then you owe the creator of the toolset a certain amount of money. But in all honesty, I don’t think that’s a viable model. Imagine our example of Adam Miller making $50,000. How much incentive would he have if he had to give away even 20% of that? A LOT less. Plus it would only amount to only $10,000. Enough to pay one of your programers for a month or two. Just not gonna fly.
It seems to me that the only really viable model is a monthly fee model like D&D 4E. There is OBVIOUSLY a lot of players out there willing to play $15/month (WoW) for well done content to keep them busy. But then again, that’s in a social setting which helps a lot as the social is actually the primary game.
To be honest, I think the DM model is a shoe in. You could easily make money off of it via a monthly fee and paying (or allowing to be paid) DMs . The single player model is more elusive. I haven’t come up with a definitive model yet. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
.. good points..
I think if your Adam Miller example worked.. and he gave away 20%.. that’s a good deal for Adam.. Aa a published author.. by a publisher.. Falcon Publishing.. an imprint of Globe Pequot Press.. with 3 books .. two in second editions (multiple printings).. I’d kill.. er.. be thrilled with a deal where I got to keep all but 20% of the proceeds.. as it is.. I have a good deal and in the best case scenario I get 12.5% of what the publisher gets.
What has it got me? On TV once to promo the book.. but I didn’t get any money for that.. a neighbor saw me on a repeat of the show and told me.. that was fun.. but no money..
Would I do it again?.. yup.
You’re right.. we’d do it for a lot less.. anything that lends respectablility would be good. Anything that allowed us to say we do something of value so we can avoid situations like you had with your father-in-law.
Though, you could have told him that people make money at it by getting jobs through the contests… but that’s reachin’ ..
This is a tough nut to crack.. it’ll come in time.. I just hope I can still see the screen when it happens.
>>> I just hope I can still see the screen when it happens.
Amen. I hope so too. (For me, not you.)